Relief types of the "Thick Figure" '68s

[Manuel Iglesias]

Rolando,
 
The only 10 types from the same District and same year that I have are from Colima 1871, 25 centavos.
I have the 10 types on the 6 and 12 centavos with different Districts and years. I never completed the 50 and 100 centavos, maybe one of this days I will get back to the 68's again, unfourtunately Hidalgos 1856 and 1861, Eagles and Maximilians are my present priorities.
My interest on 68's was in the early 80's, but fortunately I have kept my collection all these years and add few things here and there from time to time, but I don't consider myself an expert on 68's.
Best regards,
Manuel.

[Rolando Castanon]

Bubba: Thanks for your opinion and your point of view and congratulations to Manuel for his collection of types. all of the same district and the same year, and I know that Manuel is now conected, so i would like to ask him if he has each one of the years of the same district in the ten types, that would be very impressive to me!.

[Bubba Bland]

  Rolando,
 
I am not an expert on the printing process for this issue, but it is my understanding that the relief dies used to produce the ten different types for each denomination, in that each varied some from one to the other. However, when these dies were used to lay down the images they were always the same. What is referred to as retouches in these issues are those positions where the image wasn't removed and another put in, but actual retouching the image on the plate. If this were done, as long as that position image remained as part of the plate, there would be a constant flaw or retouched image.
 
This is where we have varieties beyond the actual relief image. So, it is possible to find say the SE spandrel redrawn on type 19 if the 25c (this is an actual retouch found on stone F, position 100). Anyway, there are a number of these that have been identified, by collectors that have found more than one of the same retouch.
 
We also have flaws that happened due to a transfer flaw. These type varieties also fall into the collected spectrum of constant flaws and retouches.
 
Now, regarding your second part of your question. My position on collecting these types and varieties is all positive. This has been done by the likes of Vannotti, de Smeth, Fayolle, Larranaga, Benson, Josling, Speaker, Heath, Stout and many more. This list reads like a Who's Who of Mexican Philately. Myself, if I were not so heavily involved in collecting the Dos Reales and selling classic stamps, I would have started a collection of the 1868s years ago. As a matter of fact, for years I just stock piled this issue, because they just weren't very good sellers; however, about 5 or 6 years ago, I discovered that indeed they had become better sellers with a new interest from many collectors. So, what use to be an issue collected by a very small circle, widened to a much larger group.
 
Surprisingly, this issue is still pretty easy to find and the average prices for many of these stamps is still low enough for most collectors to put together a fairly good collection. At this point I don't see this issue becoming anywhere as difficult as the first issue or the Eagles for a collector to assemble an outstanding group of these stamps. Also collecting varieties doesn't limit the collector as much as finding a rare district or rare cancel. Many of these varieties are on the very most common district and denominations.
 
It was very sad to lose our friend Doug Stout, but for the collectors of the 1868 issues, part of his collection is being put up for auction in the next Follansbee sale in October. Another part of it is to be auctioned off by S. Rumsey auctioneers. So, some pretty good material is ready to hit the market. We will see a lot more from his collection over the next few years.
 
So, yes, collecting these stamps and varieties is not only fun, it can be also be a collection you will be able to pursue for years.



PS. The image I put up was done by Manuel Iglesias from stamps in his collection. I only cropped and compressed the image to put it up on MexiMail. Indeed it is a great image.

[Rolando Castanon]

Dear Bubba Thanks for the examples Really are excellents images that can be extended and be appreciated the details of the ten types. Now my question is with respect to the retouches of these ten types that report Fayolle, Doug and especially Garci'a Larranaga who reports for each type of each value up to 25 adjustments. Are they really retuoches. And what is your opinion about forming a collection of this type of varieties and adjustments aside from the time and the wearing down of view, is the cost in money too high.

[Bubba Bland]

  Mike,
 
There are several reasons multiples are not found on the 25c and higher 1868 issues. First there apparently were enough higher denomination stamps to handle 50c and 100c rates. Secondly, the 50c or 100c usually stood alone. The most common multiple stamps on covers were rates that would have required different value stamps, such as a 12c and 25c, so the need for attached pairs was small.
 
Regarding remainders, from what I understand, many of what became remainder were the stamps turned in that had been separated and used as a means of pocket change which at the time was scarce in coin form. Most of the remainders are also 6c and 12c stamps. And, lastly, many of the remainders that were not burned up, were separated to supply the demand for single stamps for collectors all over the world.
 
1868 stamps have never been really popular and most have been very low in price, which lead stamp dealers to use them in packets and on approval cards. Literally millions of these were sold in Europe and later in the US, as stamp collecting became popular with tens if not hundreds of millions of people the world over. The vast majority of covers had their stamps clipped off and soaked to be sold as singles. Few of the scarce pairs even survived this wholesale end of much of the postal history items for Mexico. So, these are most of the reasons we don't find pairs, strips or blocks of these 25c an upward stamps, but likely these are not the only reasons.

[Michael Kielb]

Two things strike me from a practical point of view.  First, very few 'remainders' must have made it to the philatelic world and second, very few multiples must have been used on mail.  Taking this one step further, most districts must have had enough higher denomination stamps thus not necessitating the use of multiples of lower values.  Was this good planning by the postal authorities?  Doubtful, since the country was just emerging from the French Intervention when fragmented and disrupted by "crossing lines" and desperate origins.  Personally, I imagine that the 12 and 25 values must have been the work-horses of domestic mail service.  Across the ocean in Europe similar possible scenarios occur in Sardinia and Greece.  In Sardinia the 10 and 20 cent. stamps filled essentially the same roll in a political situation that was very explosive and fragmented.  In Greece the 20 lepta does the job and the situation in Greece essentially followed a rather long foreigh "intervention."  Interestingly, multiples of the Sardinian values can be found, although somewhat pricey.  The situation with the Greek stamp is even more extreme with multiples demanding outrageous premiums.  Yet, with both of the European situations plating is not only possible, but at least in the case of the Greek stamps virtually complete for the entire large Hermes head issues.  Sorry for the ramble, but I am trying to distract myself from thinking about what I was doing eight years ago on this date.  Regards, Michael

[Bubba Bland]

  Michael,
 
 I don't believe the plates positions wore as much as they got damaged. The simple act of a printers fingernail could have caused damage.
 
I talked to Doug Stout about the possibility of plating these stamps and there are some real challenges to any effort of doing this. Outside of the 6 and 12 centavos, all the other denominations are rare in even pairs. I have handled thousands of 25c '68s, and I have never had one pair. The second road block to plating these issues is the continued replacement of damaged positions. If my memory serves me right, Doug told me that originally the positions were laid down with a relief die (if that is what you call this in lithography) that held all the ten positions. But, as one can easily see in the pairs found on the 6c and 12c, positions are rarely found in order, obviously due to replacements. The same would hold true with the higher denominations if one could find them in pairs. Considering that the replacement of these damaged positions would be an on going thing, a plate would change many times over the life of a stones use.
 
 Be as it may, this issue became a life long study for Doug and others that found this rather ugly little stamp one of the charming philatelic gems of Mexico.
 
I forgot to add that this week I put up some really great '68 material on eBay and I have most of these listed by their types.

[Michael Kielb]

Bubba - Thanks for the scan, it came through well, and clearly illustrates the varieties (types, or whatever).  I imagine that since the individual 'transfers' were replaced over time, presumably due to damage, that stamps showing wear and/or damage should also be found.  Sounds like an area ready for somebody to dive in and spend some time.  The whole process of building a lithographic place, cleaning and repairing it is an amazing process.  Mike

[Bubba Bland]

Rolando,
 
I agree with you that the books have poor illustrations of these types. Manuel I. tried to post a scan of his ten 25 centavos types from the Colima district. I have cropped the image and reduced the number of Bytes required. So, hopefully this scan will come though.

[Rolando Castanon]

Mr. Bubba. lately emission 1868 has interested me much mainly in the great amount of types of varieties and adjustments but I have found very difficult to detect these varieties since in books of Jhon Heat and the one of Garci'a Larranaga are not clear the differences. I believe that serious interesting to count on a book of reference with extended images. that they allow to detect  the varieties easily. If somebody knows if  exists some publication of this type
please let me know

[Bubba Bland]

  Manuel et al,
 
My feelings are that we normally use some word too freely in our stamp collecting. I too have been using 'type' to describe these different transfer types, but in the 1868 issues we hear "Thin Figure Type" and "Thick Figure Type" regarding to the different denomination types. Then we have the "Tipos" or Postal Fraud Types.
 
Actually the best way to distinguish the different relief types would be to call them Relief 1 or Relief 2 and on to Relief 10. Most philatelist in other country collections call these reliefs with letters such as Relief A, etc., but this really doesn't matter. Be as it may, it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks or stamp collectors new terminology or anything else. So, I say we just muddle through with the word "Type".

[Manuel Iglesias]

Bubba and Spuff,
 
They were called Types when I started to collect Classic Mexico in the late 70's. There are articles copied from "Les Premiers Emissions du Mexique" (Smeth and Fayolle) in the October 1952 and all 1953 Mexicanas describing in detail all Types of all the values. I tried to attach a Scan from my collection previously but it was rejected because it is big, Sorry.
Manuel.

[Bubba Bland]

Spuff,
 
Right you are, but as a normal engraving type plating type guy am use to the term 'relief' referring to any transfer die that is unique. In the 'thick figure' '68s, they had 10 different transfer dies used for each denomination. It is my understanding that the printers would remove and replace these different images from the lithographic stone with one of these lithographic type transfer dies as the need arose. Doug Stout told me one time that due to the many alterations of the stones over the period of their use, that plating is almost impossible for the issue.
 
On the other hand, there are so many different charatistics for this issue that it is an amazing area for the philatelist to study.

[Martin "Spuff" Spufford]

Hi Bubba.
Where I come from we call them Lithographic transfer types (TTs) if anyone is confused by your nomenclature.
spuff

[Bubba Bland]

If you are collecting or if you are interested in the relief types of the 1868 issues "Thick Type" I have been going through a large collection of these. Many of the items are common district and common cancels, but there is a world of nice examples of just about every relief type from the 6 centavos issues through the 50 Centavos. I have some of the 100 centavos, but not all of the relief examples.
 
So, if you need particular examples, let me know and I can send scans. Contact me at oobubba@ca.rr.com
 
Now, if you collect these relief types, send all of us a note to the forum and let us know something about your collecting of these. Just something simple to let others know why you find it interesting.
 
PS. I haven't done mush on the odd varieties and for collector of these, they may find some amazing varieties in the ones I have.