Author Topic: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?  (Read 13791 times)

Mark Banchik

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2012, 07:19:35 PM »
'Private Impression' is fancy name for reprint. This vender has several similar lots on ebay of reference material.

Marc Gonzales

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2012, 02:38:35 PM »
James,
These are good examples of a forged Gothic overprint.  The stamps themselves on gray paper are purported to be reprints made in Germany.  Somewhat scarce as far as reprints go.  There are examples of these that are on thin gray paper, some with watermark and therefor dangerous fakes of the #42 stamp.  Of course the Ocho did not come on Gray paper so is not dangerous but the gray medios do fool people.  However the fake overprint is easy to spot.  You notice how thick the lettering is, genuine overprints do not normally have this appearance.
Regards,
Marc

Manuel Iglesias

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2012, 08:14:54 PM »
James,
 
They both look bad to me on the overprint. Scott 35 should be buff in color and 40 red/brown. Both should have HORIZONTAL mesh paper.
Best regards,
Manuel.
 

Bubba Bland

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2012, 07:10:19 PM »
Medio should be #42, but it appears to me as a fake reprint with a bogus ovpt. Ocho, if #40 would have had more color to the paper. Likely a fake as well.
Doubt that they are Xerox copies, but anything is possible.
A collector of Dos Reales of the first design. Always having fun.

James Ford

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2012, 06:36:12 PM »
Hi Again Folks,
 
Here is an image of pair of stamps that have just been listed on eBay (Item Number 350610965277); described as: “1867. Hidalgo. Scott 35 & 40. Crude gray prívate impression on vertical mesh paper with gothic "Mexico" overprint. Mint, part original gum. FINE & uncommon.” 
 
Maybe I’m being too critical but they appear to me to be Xerox copies with Gothic overprints that look like an afterthought.  Is anyone willing to vouch for the authenticity of the overprints?

Marc Gonzales

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2012, 04:12:41 PM »
James,
No it is not easy, but it is challenging, rewarding and enjoyable.  The Gothic Mexico overprint is generally more difficult to expertise than other overprints, but fortunately with the Gothic issue there are other ways to weed out the forgeries.  I will locate a good clear forgery for you to see and post later.  It's wonderful that we have this venue to post and learn from and we're happy to see you are enjoying the challenge of Mexico.
Marc

James Ford

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 07:51:44 PM »

Thank you - Manuel, Fernando, Marc and Bubba, I am beginning to see that it takes all of the evidence to make a solid case: There is no silver bullet; a full examination is generally required.  It is not easy, but then no one ever promised that it would be easy. 


Bubba Bland

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 11:27:31 AM »
Without the tons of other obvious clues outside of the overrprint, the overprint on my stamp is the wrong color ink, likely too short and I guess has that appearance one would reject it with a "Just looks Bogus" experienced mind.
The dirty truth is, if the (any) overprint is done without great care, difficult to read and in the right color, it would be very hard to say it is not good or is good. It takes the clues from all aspects of the stamp. We know from experience and logic that the common denominated stamps rarely had bogus cancels and overprints and that the scarcer higher denomination issues are more likely to have these. The Medio, Cuatro and Ocho and likewise 6ctv, 50ctv and 100 ctv stamps were often the choice of the earlier forgers, with thousands of bogus reprints. It didn't take too long for them to catch on to the stamps that were desirable to the collectors including the rare issues, districts and cancels.
The rule of thumb should be if it cats for more, has something special like good district, rare issue or better cancel, be suspect until proven genuine. In the Gothic issues, as Manuel pointed out it isn't the overprint we worry about, since most are so poorly done, it is the issue. Outside of the fake Un real that I posted, I don't believe I have seen any other Un Real or Dos real  of the first or last period that has been faked in the Gothic issues. But, the blue on gray Un Real is one of the better issues, so, for it to crop up isn't out of the scope of my rule.
Beware, I an not advocating the dismissal of fakes in the lower values or common issues. They do happen, especially in the Revolutionary material. At around a dozen or more examples of the '56 issue Dos Reals that are reprints, I probably have one of this largest groups of this issue faked, so they are scarce, but if you know what to look for, they can be found on occasion.
Oddly, the fakes of Mexico can be just as interesting in their own way as the genuine stamps. It may take some time to get a handle on detection, but all of us get there. Hope this helps.
A collector of Dos Reales of the first design. Always having fun.

James Ford

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2012, 01:51:46 AM »
Perhaps we should rename this thread: “Questionable Gothic Overprints – How can you tell if they are real?  Or, not?”
 
For example, take a look at the overprint on the Mexico 36, 1 r black on green that Bubba posted below.  If it weren’t for the nearly covered up bits of the original Puebla overprint, how could you tell if the Gothic overprint was bogus?  Or, could you tell?  Would it be good enough to pass an expert committee without the other clues?


James Ford

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2012, 01:19:28 AM »
Hi Marc,
 
Thank you for helping with my education.  Mexican philately is complex, interesting, bizarre, difficult and challenging.  Going it alone may be an insurmountable challenge.  I have found that getting help, from those who know what they are doing, makes learning easy and enjoyable as well as a lot less expensive in terms of both time and money.  I appreciate it greatly.
 
I can’t help bragging a bit about having gotten the Gothics shown below at a bargain price, but it was a crap shoot.  I could have just as easily would up with a group of turkeys.  It will be a relief when I can buy or trade for a lot of Mexican stamps and be reasonably sure that I am not the turkey.
 
So, other than being sure that the stamp itself is right; right paper, right paper type, right texture, right thickness, right watermark, right opacity, right tint, right printing technique, right image, right composition, right dimensions, right alignment of elements, right colors and right shades; and being familiar enough with the Gothic overprints to know what a good one looks like on a dark night, during a snow storm, how can you tell if one is bogus? 
 
What is there about a bogus Gothic overprint that would cause you to recognize it as bogus?  At what point does the shape, alignment, dimensions, nature of the characters, or whatever get to the point that you would say: “Aha! That one is fake.” ?  Does anyone have an image of a known bogus Gothic overprint that they would be willing to share?


Marc Gonzales

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 06:44:57 PM »
James,
All the stamps you posted have genuine Gothic overprints, very often this overprint is faint, distorted and or nearly non existent with just a small portion showing.  Fortunately the Gothic Mexico was not forged much except to create a very rare expensive stamp.  The very rare expensive gothics such as 35, 39 and 41 are where you need to pay particular attention to the overprint.  The thin paper stamps 41-44 are rare without overprints so there would be no need to forge an overprint on one of those.  The thick paper Un and Dos won't be found with forged overprints for the most part as they are so common there would be no reason to forge them.  So the only ones to be concerned about really are 35,39, 41.   As Manuel mentioned the 39 forgeries are often bleached 38s so would still have a genuine overprint. 
Regards,
Marc

Manuel Iglesias

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2012, 12:03:00 AM »
Dear James,
 
Have to look at the entire picture not only the overprint.
All your overprints on your last Scan are pretty close but to me the key is the Circumstantial evidence: 4R red on white paper, probably a Forged gothic overprint in an unauthorized reprint.
Best regards,
Manuel.

James Ford

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2012, 09:52:07 PM »
Let’s see if I am getting the hang of the Gothic overprints.  The new attached image shows:
A Suspect image (from a Siegel auction 5 years ago on a stamp that didn’t sell)
A copy of Bill Shelton’s Type 1 Gothic overprint
A copy of Bill Shelton’s Type 2 Gothic overprint
A copy of the Gothic overprint from the Scott Catalogue
A copy of the Gothic overprint from Follansbee’s Catalogue
A copy of a Gothic overprint with a MEPSI cert (Rumsey Sale 27 lot 1705)
 
In spite of the relatively poor quality of my pictures, I think the Suspect is bogus.
Here’s why:
The left leg of the M appears to be splayed out to the left.
The serif on the left shoulder of the M is a bit low.
The e leans a bit too far backward.
The flag on the right arm of the x points up.
The top of the c doesn’t dip enough to be Type 1 and too far to be Type 2.
The top and bottom peaks of the o are too far left.
Circumstantial – the gothic image is very distinct and it was on a 4 R red on white.
 
Maybe I’m just seeing differences because I’m looking too hard, and if I am wrong, I would appreciate it if someone would please set me straight.
What do you think?


 

Bubba Bland

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2012, 11:33:13 AM »
Actually, you have come to the conclusion that make detecting these forgeries easy. That is of course that the fakes, once you are experienced with what they look like they are easier to pick out. Authentic Gothic issues rarely have good clear overprints, where the forgers tended to apply nice clean example. In other areas, such as cancels the color may be the tip off, such as many genuine have nice dark ink, where fakes for some unknown reason on reprints were oftentimes a light grayish ink. Maybe the forgers just want to make the stamp look nice an clean without a heavy cancel?
The reference I give below of a 1856 issue with a Gothic overprint is a huge tip off that the item had been played with. A big number of fakes and altered stamps are easy to detect, simply by the mistakes made by the forger. Light cancel, incorrect dates or type cancels and overprints, paper grains not correct for the issue, colors incorrect and other mistakes.
But, getting back to you Gothic issues. Knowing what the real ones look like is really the biggest help in weeding out the bad. For the most part, the Gothic issue is not plagued with fakes in the Un and Dos Real issues, due to their lower value. Nor is the red/yellow Cuatro Real very often faked unless it is on one of the numerous reprints in the various colors which can be detected with the wrong vertical grain paper instead of the correct horizontal type. The most prevalent faked original stamp is the bleached red/yellow to look like the red/white 4R. 
Some stamps that are faked can actually be very rare. I have attached a scan of two Un Reals from the Gothic Period. The one on the left is a genuine black on green Scott #36 and the one on the right is a bogus reprint to appear as a Scott #43 the blue on blue-gray paper. This stamp on the right is an excellent example of the Stuart Type Un Real, with the leg of the 'R' in Real point into the valley formed at the center of the value tablet. The reason I put the genuine copy in this scan is so you can see the difference of the value lettering. Where the genuine is not very clear and distinct, the fake has outlined letters and obviously in the wrong places. This reprint was done by making the denomination from, likely part of a plate from another value. I doubt that anymore than one plate image was produced, since it is considered a rare fake. The fact that genuine Un and Dos Reals were common and for the most part inexpensive. In the Dos Reales a plate of apparently four was made to produce fake Emeralds. I have only been able to identify four and there is a known strip of four that for sometime was purported to be a proof strip, which is was not.
Hope some of these tips help in your search for genuine and separating out the fakes.
A collector of Dos Reales of the first design. Always having fun.

James Ford

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Re: Questionable Gothic Overprints - How can you tell if they are real?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2012, 01:42:42 AM »
Hi Bubba,
 
The Gothic overprints are leading me to suspect that it may be easier to identify forgeries than to confirm the authenticity of the real McCoy’s, if you know what to look for.  Unfortunately my field of vision is pretty limited.
 
On another thread, you said of a stamp: “The Gothic overprint is not correct. Look at the little leg on the ‘O’.  It curves downward, where all genuine copies curve upward.”  Another time you said of a forgery: “Easiest way to tell it look at the top right arm of the ‘X’. The originals have a flag that dips down at the end, where [this one] climbs upward.”
 
Those are great tips.  Do you have other tips tucked away in your reference collection that you would be willing to share?
 
Best Regards,
 
James